I have been reading David Denby's book, Snark. I have some problems with that book, but they are essentially the same ones that the reviewers have talked about, viz., that Denby's book is ultimately dissatisfying because it adopts a partisan view of snark.
It seems odd to me that an obviously smart person like Denby - or his editor - would not have noted immediately that when taken in total, snark in his view seems to be correlated pretty much with the right, and not the left. I suppose it might turn out that this is the fact of the matter, but it seems unlikely, and anyway is not demonstrated on Denby's evidence. What is demonstrated on Denby's evidence is that he regards snark in an ad hoc way - if he likes it, it is clever, well-aimed satire, irony, and parody, and if he doesn't, it is snark.
The fundamental problem in defining snark - and in saying that it is bad for the blogosphere - is that no one, least of all me, really wants all high-minded argument on the web, all the time. The problem is how to distinguish, on anything other than the least satisfying ad hoc, subjective, personal or - worse - political criteria satire, irony, parody from ... snark. Whatever exactly it is. We want A Modest Proposal; we don't want ... well, what? One general principle is to be reasonably understanding that humor is both subjective and risky, so as readers one should be reasonably forgiving even of efforts one thinks have flopped. Not everything is as pitch-perfect as the Onion, and even there lots of what I find funny, my mother would not have.
But beyond humor that misses, with some audiences or with all, what characterizes snark? Two things, I think. One is that it is an appeal to emotion - it is a statement with a particular affect, and the affect is an appeal to an attitude in which both writer and reader participate, but they participate in an exclusionary way. This is what makes it a branch of irony. Instead of arguing to everyone on the basis of shared reason so that, at least in principle, everyone could be included in the shared sentiment, snark depends upon exclusion. It is a refusal to offer a public argument, with the possibility of reasoned inclusion, and instead depends upon prior shared views that merely exclude because snark does not make an attempt to persuade. It is 'affectively exclusionary' in the language of moral psychology.
(Note that the greatest satire and irony appears to be exclusionary in this way - but ultimately is not. A Modest Proposal is the bitterest satire, and yet it ultimately is inclusionary, because underlying it is an appeal to a universal sentiment in which all can participate. It is not a reasoned argument, and is not an invitation to inclusion on that basis. It is, rather than argument, an invitation to see the universal moral impulse beneath the satire, and to demonstrate it by a reductio ad absurdum - an invitation to apperceive the universal value. It is a little like the Christian concept of conversion through the bearing of testimony. Despite the surface irony, in other words, truly great satire is actually an invitation to see and join the community of believers, not exclusion from it.)
Two, because snark depends upon a prior shared commitment, it is a form of question-begging argument. Not precisely a form of argument, because it is about affect, not reason. So, more precisely, snark is the affective cognate of a question-begging argument, in which the sentiment of the conclusion assumes the sentiment of the premise. It assumes that one already shares the attitudes necessary to ... share the attitudes.
It's not just that he has a partisan view of snark, but that he doesn't have any idea what snark is. Yes, he tends to label conservative statements as snark and liberal ones as irony or satire or the like, and that's off-putting. But what was worse was that half the conservative things he described as snark simply weren't.
...or, approximately as Orin put it a few years ago, Sarcasm is not an argument.
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.
They shuddered to think that the chase might fail,
And the Beaver, excited at last,
Went bounding along on the tip of its tail,
For the daylight was nearly past.
"There is Thingumbob shouting!" the Bellman said,
"He is shouting like mad, only hark!
He is waving his hands, he is wagging his head,
He has certainly found a Snark!"
They gazed in delight, while the Butcher exclaimed
"He was always a desperate wag!"
They beheld him--their Baker--their hero unnamed--
On the top of a neighboring crag.
Erect and sublime, for one moment of time.
In the next, that wild figure they saw
(As if stung by a spasm) plunge into a chasm,
While they waited and listened in awe.
"It's a Snark!" was the sound that first came to their ears,
And seemed almost too good to be true.
Then followed a torrent of laughter and cheers:
Then the ominous words "It's a Boo-"
Then, silence. Some fancied they heard in the air
A weary and wandering sigh
Then sounded like "-jum!" but the others declare
It was only a breeze that went by.
They hunted till darkness came on, but they found
Not a button, or feather, or mark,
By which they could tell that they stood on the ground
Where the Baker had met with the Snark.
In the midst of the word he was trying to say,
In the midst of his laughter and glee,
He had softly and suddenly vanished away---
For the Snark *was* a Boojum, you see.
For example, I was tempted to (but refrained) from joining the Honduras coup thread with a comment about the situation in the New York State Senate. But I think injecting a reminder about actual practices in our paragon of democracy compared with the supposedly cruder ways in the banana republics might have been an 'argument.'
Which is not to be confused with an argument.
There's nothing WRONG with snark. If done well it can be funny. If deployed with care, it can ridicule something deserving of ridicule.
The problem is when people deploying snark confuse it with making an argument.
To use the specific example Prof. Kerr used, you can certainly make fun of a judge who declares Jose Padilla, who you might think to be a dangerous terrorist, had various rights that you don't think he should have had. There's nothing wrong with ridiculing someone who takes a position that you don't agree with.
But just don't assume that this is going to persuade anyone who doesn't agree with you. In the Padilla case, those who do not agree with the commenter are going to be people who are concerned about such things as (1) granting the President excessive power without accountability, (2) setting precedents that would allow the government to arrest Americans without valid charges, (3) setting precedents that would allow the government to torture detainees, (4) whether the acts that Padilla was ultimately accused were really of such an extraordinary nature so as to justify the government's conduct, etc.
A person arguing in favor of the treatment of Padilla should address those concerns, i.e., "here's why it isn't excessive Presidential power, here's why it won't lead to the detention of innocent Americans (or why we should take that risk even if it might), here's why it won't lead to torture (or why it's OK if it does), here's why Padilla is an extraordinary case, etc.".
Snark never does that. So it doesn't advance the argument or lead us closer to the truth or allow antagonists to better understand each other's respective positions.
That doesn't mean that there's no place for snark. It just means that too many people fall back on it rather than arguing their positions in situations where the positions that they are taking really are contested and require argument.
Uh, HELL yeah. I bow to no one in my (1) liberal values and (2) reverence for snark. Wingnut snark is inferior and derivative.
This is David Dumbass Denby, folks. Read his review of Kill Bill, and you know pretty much all you need to know to evaluate Mr. Denby. (His film criticism at least hinders him from writing more books than he already does, and is thus worthwhile to that extent.)
Beautifully argued.
KA,
What sort of remuneration would you require to become a Conspirator in perpetuity? Perhaps something could be arranged.
Anderson,
"Wingnut snark is inferior and derivative."
Well, that's the thing. Back when the intertubes were a libertarian playground, I remember being struck by the rancid snark of the new progressive interlopers. Which makes Denby's account sort of like the ref throwing the flag on the retaliator.
Too bad, too. I got a kick out of Denby back in the day.
I would have to say that sarcasm (or snark) can easily make an argument; it's weakness is that often, many of its practitioners don't make a clear argument, and thus the often partisan reasoning is not delineated and chained into an easily understandable series of inferential steps.
For example, look at this beautiful piece of snark from yesterday's thread discussing Obama's signing statements, by a Widmerpool:
I see this as partly mocking how the complexity of the Left's arguments has changed as the electoral map has shifted; e.g. a categorical "NO!" on signing statements has changed into a "maybe.." justified by some fiendishly complicated, hard to untangle logically, criteria. Of course, I, as an opponent of leftism, would be likely to draw such an inference, while someone who disagreed would quite honestly believe that the nuanced view was the unchanging one promulgated since the beginning. It might be sublime commentary, but everyone, Left and Right, is guilty of political blinders on certain issues, especially when it matters. Certainly, I would grant that partisan snark isn't very good at convincing the opposing side.
I think the truth of the matter is that snark can subtly convey a twisted logic in an argument to one person, and be totally inappropriate to use on another person. If I were to draw an analogy, I would say that snark is closer to technical shorthand in a scientific arena. For example, it might be apt for me to quickly demonstrate some concept to a familiar colleague using language like, "OK, imagine a vector space of very high dimension in R^{N}, and...", but it would be silly to explain the same sort of concept with the same language to a bewildered novice. What am I trying to say...diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks? Yeah, that's precisely what I mean.
PS: K.A. is a master of consistently posting engaging and interesting prompts that don't led themselves to stupid snark. Keep up the good work!
I thought it was pretty much an end in itself.
For instance, you want to beat up on Sarah Palin? Just mock out her "real Americans" comment. Like this: "I guess what the election proved is that 53 percent of us just aren't real Americans."
See? You've won. And it didn't even require engaging what she was getting at, which is the belief that the coastal elites, particularly the Beltway elite, are out of touch and not representative of the rest of us.
I try not to use snark when arguing with people I respect. I used to use it a lot and maybe it's okay for a joke now and then but deploying it in a serious argument strikes me as childish and sort of a low blow.
Unfortunately, people with chips on their shoulder will feel attacked whether or not they're the targets, and the internet attracts them in droves. So snark which might get the benefit of the doubt in a normal conversation inevitably provokes at least one angry response, which elicits its own counter-attack, etc., and another debate goes up in flames.
Of course people who intend their remarks to be taken personally do the same damage, but I consider that more (or maybe less) than just snark.
Most partisan BS sarcasm and snark on the right and left blogosphere is dependent on taking comments out of context to ridicule a speaker one dislikes; rather than taking the statement in context to counter their actual argument or point, however poorly stated.
For example, it is possible to rationally disagree with Sen. McCain's position on use of military force and even to do so snarkily, but to do so by invoking his old "bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" goofing as serious or some sort of subconscious measure of his "true" opinions is ludicrous and immediately renders that argument void as puerile nonsense.
Snark, for intelligent people at least, should attack the value of the position within its own context, not be used as a means to support what is essentially irrational partisan personal hatred.
"I thought it was pretty much an end in itself."
There is a species of sarcasm/snark, perhaps not the primary one, that is the expression of pain. The primary example of this that comes to mind is God's answer when Job puts him on the spot:
"Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 'Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding.'"
Sound familiar? Nice smackdown there, God. <-- snark
In the slightly less exalted context of internet political discourse, that pain can be cognitive dissonance, having a long-treasured worldview smashed against the cruel rocks of reality, or seeing policies one has spent years laboring to see implemented swept aside with little apparent thought, in lieu of the triumphant snark of the sweepers.
Which gets to what may be the primary end - exerting dominance.
It's one of those "get the log out of your own eye", "pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall" moments that we read about in the Good Book. But you do have to be able to read ....
Even if you're unable to form a coherent sentence without someone else's words displayed on your teleprompter.
Sarah Palin was out of touch with what real Americans want: obsequious groveling to foreign dictatorships, contempt towards foreign constitutional republics, government control of manufacturing and finance, unprecedented debt....
Here is some snark for you.
You do realize, don't you, that Palin had a running mate who may have marginally affected her vote tallies?
When you snark someone or something you presume some kind of personal superiority and grant him or it no worth. That's why I don't think snark is synonymous with (or a subset of) sarcasm. Snark is always directed towards demeaning or delegitimizing an other. Think about it: is it possible to snark yourself? It's essentially toxic partisanship: "You suck because you're you. Period."
Sarcasm can still be used against someone or something that's your own, so the element of mockery is there but the contempt is not. It's entirely possible to be sarcastic about yourself. Maybe you could call it frustrated or disappointed partisanship: "I/we/you suck because I/we/you. . . ."
As blogosphere examples go, Tbogg or Sadly,No would be consummate snark, because all they can do is stalk the right-wing and mock it. On the other hand, Ace of Spades or Protein Wisdom can certainly snark the left, but they also take their sarcastic shots against the right where they themselves are situated.
Yes, it can be fun. And it is sometimes irresistible when your opponent seems incapable of understanding a rational argument. But in the end, it won't convince any doubters.
Le snark pour le snark.
I would say that the snarker rather *knows* that the target of the snark does *not* share the snarker's attitudes.
The reason snark is called for is that the position being mocked is, in the snarker's view, simply ridiculous, so that arguing against it seems pedantic, boring, or silly.
One *can* argue against creationists, or Holocaust deniers, or 9/11 "truthers," or people who think that Saddam's WMD's are still in hiding somewhere, or who believe that Alger Hiss really had no Communist affiliations. But why? People who believe ridiculous things are not participating in the same "interpretive community" or "web of belief" or whatever as the snarker; they are not likely amenable to persuasion.
The snarker therefore dismissively snarks those people or their views, in effect marking the bounds of his community or his discourse in a show of sublimated hostility. (Snark is of course hostile on some level.) It's a relatively sophisticated human version of what animals do all the time in marking and defending their territory.
Flannery O'Connor famously wrote about freaks because she could still tell one when she saw one. Snarkers snark because they do not believe that all opinions are created equal, or that universal tolerance or "niceness" (see Allan Bloom, "Our Virtue," in The Closing of the American Mind -- Bloom had some choice snarking skills, IIRC) are appropriate in all circumstances.
Thank you, East Coast Media/Elite Establishment!
Now THAT'S snark.
Snark and sarcasm is an argument, to pretend it isn't is to ignore a significant percent of political discourse.
The most powerful arguments in politics are snark based, in fact. Eventually Snark becomes accepted fact and then "moderates" and "reasonable people" limit the discourse to those things which are more snark free. Look at Sarah Palin, the huge amount of snark and sarcasm leveled at her eventually got many republicans to say that she wasn't a serious candidate, when if anything, she was better than those who ran in 2008 for the republican primary. In truth someone who is good with snark or humor like Rush or Colbert are far, far more powerful in the realm of ideas than those of us who stick to logical arguments.
'Parce, puer, stimulus, et fortius utere loris.'"
Bacon (Frank) from On Discourse, quoting Ovid
"Cervantes smiled Spain's chivalry away."
- Byron
Why lump creationism in there? You list several groups with low populations who hold to beliefs that are essentially disproven by historical evidence with a segment of the population that exists in equal numbers with your chosen ideology (42% of Americans believe that humans evolved while 39% believe we were made by God).
As an educated and reasonable man, I am not a holocaust denier, a 911 "truther," or someone expecting WMDs to be turned up any day now. However, while I may believe that characteristics of a particular species can evolve over time, and that this earth is much more than 7,000 years old, in all my years of studying the physical and biological sciences I have yet to be convinced that the various ideas posited about abiogenesis are any more likely than a divine creator. The only reason those models have such widespread acceptance is the fact that the only real alternative is to believe that God did it. That's just too much to ask some people, I guess . . .
I think you're probably right, but to my ear, "logical argument" is redundant, in that I find "logic" to be the essential component of something that deserves to termed an argument. Perhaps my quibble is just a semantic one.
You are right that there was plenty of snark directed at Palin (Tina Fey) but are wrong to assume that there weren't serious arguments that were made about her qualifications and character.
In any event, I don't think the Tina Fey bit would have worked if it hadn't rung true with Americans who had seen Palin. In other words, she really didn't say she could see Russia from her house, but that was an exaggeration of the TYPE of thing she would say, i.e., she did say that her state's proximity to Russia gave her adequate foreign policy experience to be Vice-President.
To see this best, compare it to some of the Republican attacks on Obama, specifically, the attack (often expressed with snark) that he is overreliant on a teleprompter. The reason that hasn't taken hold the way the attacks on Palin did is because it doesn't fit the image that Americans have of Obama from their own observations of him.
In other words, snark can ACCOMPANY an argument and perhaps make it more effective, but that's very different from the sort of snark on the Internet that is often offered in lieu of an argument.
Probably the greatest example was FDR's speech at Madison Square Garden in '40 where he referred to 'Martin, Barton and Fish.'
That's not an argument, nor is it inherently funny, but he had prepared the crowd by listing their ridiculous votes. If the crowd hadn't already thought the Republican congressional leadership were a bunch of morons, they did after that recitation. A couple nights later in Boston, all Roosevelt could get out was 'Martin' and the crowd roared back 'Barton and Fish.'
Roosevelt had to repeat the line over and over. There is no indication that he expected that kind of reaction, although he had changed the typed speech from 'Barton, Fish and Martin.'
As for Obama and the Teleprompter, you have to know the context. People hear that, and they understand it is coming out of the mouths of people who were also great boosters of Bush II, who couldn't get two consecutive straight sentences out of his mouth even with a Teleprompter.
I don't have a television and had never heard of Tina Fey until people started coming up to me in the street and at the credit union and asking if I'd seen her the night before. It wasn't that Fey was snarky, it was that she zeroed in on a sense of things that people already felt, the way a good editorial cartoon does.
I don't think that biogenesis is what most creationists have in mind. Snark is quite proper for people who insist on "intelligent design," fulminate against the evolution of the eyeball, etc.
If someone wants to posit, absent proof to the contrary, that God dropped a self-replicating organism into the primeval muck, and natural selection took over from there, I don't think it makes much sense to argue the point.
The choice may simply be aesthetic: given the *amazing* rollback over the past 150 years of "only God could've done it" regarding biological history, it seems more &more like special pleading to work God into the picture. Particularly when work on biogenesis continues to suggest that spontaneous appearance of life is entirely plausible.
But even if that's demonstrated to general satisfaction, there's always the Big Bang, right? We'll always have that for "God did it!" ... maybe.
[Invites applause for snark-free post.]
Pauline Kael alert. People saw what they wanted to see. Al Jolson was big back in the day, as is Rush's snarky distortion of D motives among all too many listeners. Perception is not so easily imbued with truth by mere fleeting popularity.
As a big Fey fan, in her Palin act I saw a very talented caricaturist feeling a little awkward about the whole thing, and not in her usual charming way. See seemed, to her credit, not so used to marking territory (h/t Anderson) nor entirely convinced that what she was doing was the right thing, at least for her. That caution doesn't strike me as misplaced.
Given what just happened Eli senses cosmic convergence.
People always see what they want to see in satire. The point I was making is that the reason Fey's Palin act was so popular is that it rang true for lots of people. That doesn't mean it rang true for everyone, though.
Having said that, I have to mention that Sarah Palin's fans had a pretty bad day today. Either this was a really clueless political decision or there's another shoe about to drop.
Here's a cosmic convergence for you, from the King of Snark himself. My take is along similar lines. Likewise with Kmiec.
As for ringing true - prejudice confirmed is prejudice still.
Maybe she owed Mark Sanford a favor.
Which would be a problematic state of affairs for a Democracy, let alone a Republic - if it were true. Thankfully, it is not. Yet. But our systematic dehumanization of those who pursue and uphold public office, and simultaneous lack of attention to those narrow interests making their lives a living hell, and ours none too comfortable, does not bode well for it remaining so.
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